Hey hey, we’re back!
Fitz is here to close out our talk about the prequels, we go balls deep into Attack Of The Clones and Revenge Of The Sith and dissect he fuck out of them in what might well be the longest Typecast yet.
As per usual, @Fitzman73‘s name appears in red and links to the podcast he does with his sister, Molly, Just Jump To The End.
Also, as is my norm, no editing (with one or two exceptions, based on technical issues I had that caused me to retype responses. I’ve edited together those posts and pointed them out as you’ll see) has been done just to maintain honesty.
Away we go!
ThatScoobyDoom: So Episode I has ended, the galaxy is in turmoil, did the promo blitz/hypefest for this little fuck we call Episode II start immediately or was there some downtime to let I marinate?
@Fitzman73: I think there was a considerable amount of downtime but as we’ve discussed before that’s really just because the internet was still developing.
You could get leaked info occasionally but it’s not like it is today where obtaining and leaking production details online is so common it’s a joke.
They might as well not even bother wasting time and energy keeping shit under wraps.
Usually by a month out from the whole script is available online and sometimes full bootlegs of rough cut video or even FULL copies of the final cut.
No back then there were a couple websites and Star Wars Insider magazine.
It was awhile before the first real news started coming in regarding episode 2, but the speculation began almost immediately.
The one rumor that I remember hearing from very early on and kept hearing it over and over as “confirmed” was that episode I ends with Boss Nass raising that sparkly ball thing during the celebration and shouting “Peace”, so epsiode II was going to open with Boss Nass slamming his fist down on a meeting table and shouting “WAR!”, because presumably the Clone Wars would start at the beginning of episode 2.
Of course now that rumor is ridiculously inaccurate and silly.
I don’t even think Boss Nass appears in a single frame of ep 2 does he?
ThatScoobyDoom: Yeah, and all these production leaks take some of the magic out of the whole shebang.
And don’t get me wrong, I look for that shit.
I look when I hear that there is an image of the Falcon captured by a drone.
I know I’m part of the problem, but if it’s there…it’s like if a hot chick starts stripping right in front of you, try NOT looking.
This is what?
Shit still wasn’t slipping out hardcore yet?
That is an interesting idea, kind of a loop of sorts, a flip of the coin.
Uh, I’m not 100% sure, but I think there may be 1 shot of Boss Nass in the senate building on Coruscant.
I could very well be completely wrong.
But I’m not sure, though I’ve seen this movie just as many times as the other 5, my memory of most of it is fuzzy at best.
@Fitzman73: Clones came out in 2002 so yeah by then there’d been a lot of official images released and early bird mail in figures (Zam Wessel for one), so the marketing machine was in full swing by 2002.
I think by 2001 they introduced that membership based service on the Official Site called Hyperspace.
Of course nobody I knew actually paid for it, but supposedly that’s where they revealed a lot of the early images and stuff.
ThatScoobyDoom: Mail in figures?
They don’t do that type of shit anymore, do they?
That’s kind of sad, I like the old school concept of that.
All I know about Hyperspace is that cool logo.
Why did you, of all people, not join up?
@Fitzman73: Mail ins were the best. The first one of course was the original Kenner Boba Fett.
I still remember the day it arrived. Then they did a mail in for Bossk and 4-LOM (actually the incorrectly labeled Zuckuss) for Empire.
Then for Jedi they did a mail in for the Emperor and later an old man Anakin in Jedi robes.
The only one of those I didn’t get via mail in was Anakin.
Although years later in high school I bought one loose at the first vintage store I ever found around here.
That’s an adventure for another time though.
For episode I they had a mail in Mace Windu and maybe a Battle Droid?
Seems like they did 2.
Episode 2 they had Zam Wessel and somebody else but I can’t remember, Obi Wan’s astromech I think?
The only one I remember for episode 3 was Captain Cody.
So yeah mail ins have been a thing with Kenner/Hasbro for a long time.
You don’t see it much these days but I can almost guarantee there will be one for episode 7.
I never subscribed to Hyperspace because A) it cost money that I didn’t have at the time really and B) I honestly felt a little betrayed by Lucasfilm.
I had already been an Insider subscriber for like 5 or 6 years at that point so I felt it was a little fucked up to make all this extra content only available through a paid service.
So even if I would’ve had the disposable income, I don’t think I would’ve paid for it anyway.
ThatScoobyDoom: Hold onto that Adventure as you called it, we may have time for it later.
I kinda hope so, so far they seem to have tried going against what George’s regime did, I know I’m mostly alone in thinking it might be a misstep.
When did the first trailer hit?
I wasn’t a fan at the time, but looking back I remember seeing a little bit about Phantom and alot about Sith, but this movie completely came and went without me hearing about it.
@Fitzman73: Yeah you know now that I’m really thinking about it, this one really didn’t make a huge splash.
I think the first Spider-Man came out right at the same time and it kind of stole episode 2’s thunder.
I recently watched the epsiode 2 trailer and woof it sucked.
It was kind of a dud for it being the first trailer.
I guess that was one of the first “teaser” trailers maybe?
I don’t remember having nearly the same orgasmic reaction to it as episode 1.
What I do remember is the first picture of Anakin in his black and brown Jedi outfit and immediately going oh shit that looks like old Luke concept costumes.
I thought he looked completely badass in the picture they released.
I think it was just the shot of him meditating outside of Padme’s room when they’re on guard duty, and it looked cool as shit.
ThatScoobyDoom: That’s exactly what happened, has to be.
Cause Spidey dropped the first weekend in May and this was like 2nd, right?
There were 4 Star Wars movies already, and this one is basically filler, put that up against Spider-Man’s first movie?
It didn’t stand a chance.
I have never really gone and watched any of the old trailers.
In a weird way, it seems pointless to me since I didn’t have any anticipation of them.
Totally different with the Ep VII trailer though, I watch it once a week.
It totally looks cool!
So as opening weekend approaches, what are you thinking?
Did they trailers have you all in?
@Fitzman73: The trailer really didn’t get me all in, I was all in from the second Ep1 ended.
Actually what got me the most jacked up was seeing the Fetts.
And seeing they didn’t cast white dudes, it was like whoa cool I wasn’t expecting that.
And the Jango armor all stainless steel and shit. I couldn’t wait.
I ended up taking my dad opening day like first showing.
It was rainy and dreary as shit.
We were supposed to go camping that weekend, I was already skipping it because it fell on opening weekend, but luckily it got rained out and my dad ended up not going and we got to see the movie together.
It was cool.
My first viewing of every Star Wars film has been in the theater with my dad except Episode I (we went together the second time I saw that one)
ThatScoobyDoom: So you guys sit down, fanfare, opening crawl, some shit happens, credits, what did you think of it?
@Fitzman73: I dug most of it.
I liked the mystery aspect of it.
I thought the idea of a clone army was cool.
My mind was blown that Boba Fett was essentially just a clone of Jango.
Which means THAT is what Boba Fett looks like in the OT under the helmet.
It was a game changer to have that much insight into the character all of a sudden.
I thought Christopher Lee was amazing.
And possibly most importantly, Yoda looked incredible.
This was the first CG Yoda (besides the real quick cg Yoda at the end of Ep 1).
A lot of people were freaking out when we heard they were going to try a CG Yoda.
Even I was like oh I don’t know, that just seems wrong.
But let’s face it that ep 1 Yoda puppet was an abortion and once you see the end of episode 2 you realize cg was really their only option.
The end fight was amazing.
Seeing it in the theater when Yoda hobbles in, everyone in the theater was like OH SHIT!
They’re gonna throw down!
And then you think it’s just all force lightening and stuff until Dooku whips out his saber.
When Yoda opened his robe and force pulled his lightsaber into his hand the whole theater gasped, no idea how this little dude was going to sword fight a 6’4 man.
The entire courtship subplot was awful.
Just not at all believable. Hayden’s performance was for the most part a disappointment.
They had absolutely NO chemistry.
That aspect of film was a big letdown.
Just not enough time to develop a plausible romance and as we’ve said before directing live actors is not GL’s forte.
This movie really needed someone like a Kershner to really infuse humanity and believability into their relationship.
He did an amazing job with Han and Leia in Empire, this film needed something similar.
Although Natalie Portman delivers her best line possibly of the whole trilogy in my opinion.
The “truly deeply love you” line is dog shit but right before that when she says she’s not afraid to die, gives me goosebumps the way she delivers it
And then there were the little things that really rubbed me wrong.
Like Obi Wan’s beard.
Especially in the “this lightsaber is your life” scene.
He looks straight up bizarre.
He always looks like Martin Short to me.
ThatScoobyDoom: The Obi-Wan/Fett mystery stuff aside, if it weren’t for the last 30-45 minutes of this movie (which is less than half) it would be a complete and utter piece of shit.
This movie is just so goddamn boring.
I rarely ever fall asleep during a movie, I’ve fallen asleep during this one no less than 3 times.
But the ending is so strong that it saves me from hating it.
What was it like to finally have a firm backstory for Boba Fett after 20+ years of speculation?
Because, like most things with the prequels, folks kinda shit in George’s mouth for it.
I never really understood the hoopla over PT Puppet Yoda until I saw pix of it again recently.
I think it would be fine if the Menace was set another 35 years before the Empire, they made him look far too young.
Yoda jumping around that chamber is shit your pants awesome and Christopher Lee’s booming voice is spectacular for a villain!
When I think of him I think of that one line “you disappoint me Skywalker”, that one line and his delivery of it is a masterstroke of an acting choice.
It’s dripping with contempt and condescension, but he also injects it with this feeling that makes it like that moment where Scar is playing with that mouse before Zazu shows up and distracts him.
He just has and ease about himself that is perfect for Dooku’s nobel roots.
Yeah, and she doesn’t come off like she actually loves him.
She comes off a bit like he’s forcing her into a relationship or like she’s indulging his crush, at least that’s how I saw it.
What was Hayden in before this that brought him to Lucas’s attention?
I’m not sure I remember what line you’re refering too.
I think I said this before, I’ve developed a bit of a mental block in regard to this film.
I think this one is the only one of the PT that deserves any and all of the shit that gets thrown at it.
His beard was overshadowed to me by his plastic helmet of hair. Lol
@Fitzman73: Yeah it’s definitely the worst of the trilogy without a close second.
But you’re absolutely right, if there’s one thing GL can do consistently it’s finish a movie strong.
Oh Anakin is a total date rapist creeper in this.
His little smirks and shit make my skin crawl.
Again their relationship is really enhanced by The Clone Wars.
I think aside from the weak script they really just don’t have the time in this movie to make a convincing love story.
And partly I think that’s the point.
Once you get past the terrible acting and dialog you start to see that they really aren’t in love and she’s using him as much as he’s using her.
She has just as much of a hole to fill (quiet you) as he does.
She’s just damaged in a different way than Anakin.
If you read the novelization there’s a scene where they have dinner with her family and her internal monologue reveals how jealous of her sister she is.
She has the husband the kids the family that she really wants but knows because of her dedication to the Republic she’ll probably never have.
Then Anakin comes along and he’s basically in the same situation and it’s like wait we could have this secret life.
It became a marriage of obsession for him and a marriage of convenience for her.
She isn’t tied down with him except when she wants to be.
So she gets to have both lives.
That puppet was shockingly bad.
They swear that it was made from the exact same molds as the original puppet but it is FUCKED UP looking.
The biggest problem is probably how much light there is in the Jedi council chamber.
Dagobah is all gloomy and gray/green so he blends in better.
The lighting creates shadows and stuff on his face that make him look totally different in broad daylight.
I think they really did do it just like Empire but it just did not work in that light.
Plus they might’ve messed up the color processing too and that’s how he ended up soooooooooo green and rubbery looking.
Whatever happened it’s horrific and I’m so glad they replaced that thing with CG Yoda for the Blu Ray.
I was totally on board with Boba’s backstory.
Anyone who shits on it is a moron.
First of all it’s the tiniest piece of his history.
I don’t think it ruins any of the mystique of the character because you have 2 decades between his appearances in which he can build his rep as the baddest bounty hunter ever.
Seeing him as a kid interacting (and learning!) from his father was cool I thought.
ThatScoobyDoom: He really does, but we’ll get back to that in just a bit.
You remember how Sam Witwer said that Jedi makes Empire the best Star Wars movie?
In the same vein, The Clone Wars makes this movie tolerable!
It was more than one scene as I recall, I remember her expressing jealousy a few times because her sister literally has the perfect life.
That may be true, but it would be nice if they slowed it down just a bit before they got shoved together in a marriage.
I think this movie really shines a light on Obi-Wan’s failure as a master.
Because while Anakin started his training late, Obi-Wan should have (and I hate to use the term but it fits) beaten those obsessive tendencies out of him…but maybe (and this is total hindsight) this is Anakin’s reaction to seeing how Obi-Wan interacted with Satine.
I don’t know if I buy it being the same mold, the stark difference between the puppet and the CG (which looks sort of like the original) is far to jarring to make it believeable.
It was the best option, and it makes the movie so much better for it.
I wonder if it’s just a gross overreaction to clones that nerds tend to have due to far too much shitty clone nonsense like The Clone Saga from Spider-Man.
Clone has a bad connotation due to that shit.
But as we said repeatedly in Typecast #9/the Podcast, it would be so damn easy to make Boba boring and just plain dull but George instead tried like hell to do something other than make him just a generic bad guy.
I totally think it works because it gives him a reason to prove himself, especially to prove himself as superior or different than the rest of the clones across the galaxy.
@Fitzman73: I think you’re close with that Satine point.
But I think you have it reversed.
I don’t think Anakin knew about Satine prior to the Clone Wars series which happens after this film, so I don’t think it’s Anakin taking after Obi-Wan.
Instead I think that because Obi-Wan had this love affair with Satine, struggled with it, and eventually got past it, I think that makes him go easy on Anakin.
I believe that he always knew something was up, he definitely knew he was in love with Padme and obsessed with her.
Later I think he suspected much more but because he was able to make the right choice with Satine in the end he allowed Anakin to work it out for himself.
And that my friend is what you call fucking up royal.
This did come out when “clone” was a dirty word in the real world even.
This was around the same time that there was so much outrage and disgust in segments of the population about cloning sheep and people saying they wanted to clone a human and all the political and religious aruguing in the media about it.
So you might be right, a lot of people might’ve been turned off by that word.
ThatScoobyDoom: See, this is the shit I love getting into.
As I recall, Anakin was sort of shocked by Obi-Wan’s relationship with Satine, BUT!
When did Obi-Wan have the original spark with Satine?
Was it when he was Padawan to Qui-Gon or when he was training Anakin?
Because, if it was during the training years, given Anakin’s age when he entered his training, I think Obi-Wan would have had to have been alot more hands on with Ani.
The kid was 9 years behind after all, Obi-Wan would have to try and train him as fast as he could to get him caught up so I think his lessons would have happened “on the road” so to speak.
So, whether either of them realized it, I’m guessing Anakin saw something somewhere that suggested to him that it was okay.
It couldn’t be as simple as seeing that Ki-Undi-Mundi was able to marry so he figured “why not me?”, gotta be something there.
Can you think of any usage of clones that was good or widely liked?
Cause I’m stumped.
@Fitzman73: I’m pretty sure that his affair with Satine happened before Anakin.
I’m almost positive that at some point they talk about the last time they were together and Obi-Wan was alone actually.
I think he was still with Qui-Gon but advanced enough to be dispatched on solo assignments kinda like they would do with Ahsoka during the Clone Wars.
I don’t know that Anakin would need to see anyone do something in order to think it was ok for him as well.
Quite the opposite actually.
You’re right he was too old to begin the training, he already had a fully formed personality and way of thinking that normally isn’t there in a Padawan and that was his eventual downfall.
He didn’t stick to the teachings because he had too much life experience outside of the Order to take their bullshit rules at face value.
They couldn’t completely reprogram him like they would a normal Padawan.
So I think from the very beginning his attitude was yeah I’ll do it like you say until it doesn’t make sense to me and then I’ll just make my own rules.
Oh and one more thing about Satine/Obi-Wan, I’m also almost positive that she hadn’t seen his beard before they reunited in Clone Wars, so that would point to their trist happening when he was still an apprentice.
ThatScoobyDoom: That shoots that theory to hell then.
Well, what I meant was, Anakin may have had Obi-Wan telling him “hey, you can’t sow any wild oats.” but Obi-Wan was stepping out of line showing Ani that you can’t step out…if you’re stupid enough to get caught!
Anakin may have seen it as an unspoken way to skirt the rules, which in the grand scheme would be considered a path to the dark side.
Well, for some reason everybody thinks to be a full fledged Jedi or a Master you need a beard, but look at Mace.
Obi-Wan could have gone without the beard for a while while he trained Anakin.
Remember, the gap between I & II is 10 years.
@Fitzman73: That’s true.
I’ll have to watch those eps now.
Now I’m curious.
ThatScoobyDoom: Do it and report back.
What did you think about R2 and 3PO being witnesses to the marriage?
@Fitzman73: That closing scene actually made me gasp.
I had read the comic at that point, so I knew about the wedding at the end, but just like Qui-Gon in ep1 I had forgotten it was coming and when they cut from the clone army leaving Coruscant to that beautiful shot at the country house on Naboo I was like a little girl.
It makes total sense that they would be the witnesses.
They’re the witnesses of the entire Saga in general so of course they’d be there.
You finally get to see gold plated 3PO, you see Anakin’s first bionic limb, and it all happens on the spot where they had that first kiss earlier in the film.
The scene works perfectly for me as the end of the movie.
I only wish, as said earlier, their actual chemistry in the movie had been better and their relationship developed better.
But again as we said, Lucas knows how to end a movie strong and for me anyway this was a powerful image.
So much bad shit is about to happen, it really gives this scene an undercurrent of dread.
You’re finishing the movie on what should be a happy, beautiful moment, but you know that’s not how it will go.
ThatScoobyDoom: Okay, I answered this and it didn’t send so now ya’ll get a truncated imitation of what was a brilliant, soul searching, thought provoking, look into the heart of man and machine.
I totally agree with everything you just said, completely.
It was a great, beautiful scene, 3PO and R2 are our windows into this world in a weird way…but I still wonder if it was wise to have 3PO witness something like that which really needs to be kept a secret.
While he isn’t a truly sentient being, much like I-5YQ, 3PO is probably as close to a sentient being as droid can get, they both are programed to be as close to sentient as possible.
And as nervous as 3PO is (not to mention how big of a target he is, being so closely associated with a senator who has as big a public image as the Chancellor) who’s to say he wouldn’t be “kidnapped” and “tortured”, and by “tortured” I mean having his memory bank scanned or stolen, just to get some dirt on Padme?
Which in turn would give them dirt on Anakin, which could end her career and get him banished which was the entire reason for keeping it a secret in the first place!
I think 3PO is as big of a risk as the holy man preforming the ceremony is.
Far too many unnecessary variables that make the risk way higher than it needs to be.
So yeah, I’m a bit conflicted on them being there.
As JJ made sure Kev knew during his Ep VII set visit, loose lips sink starships.
Even though Anakin created him, to me he’s hard to trust with that information.
@Fitzman73: That’s true, although droids memories can be pretty easily wiped so there’s nothing to say he didn’t delete this particular from 3PO’s hard drive at some point.
That’s just me being an apologist again though because that’s actually a pretty fair point.
But Anakin is “the maker” so that’s gotta count for something.
He says zip it and it might be like Robocop, he can’t disobey a direct order and shit.
My money is on memory wipe though.
I’ll stop rambling now. Ha Ha Ha.
We didn’t really touch on Anakin’s mother dying and the slaughter of the Tuskens.
What did you think of that when you first saw it?
ThatScoobyDoom: But if they did wipe his memory, why have him there in the first place?
Seems like alot of extra work when they could’ve just powered him down for a bit.
When I first saw that I was shocked beyond belief.
This was all still new to me but that seemed a little hardcore for Star Wars and in some ways I still believe it might be.
It’s another case of off screen inference that makes it seem far more brutal than showing him actually slicing and dicing those fuckin’ animals.
What about you?
@Fitzman73: The build up was way too lame and rushed.
I mean he finds her so fast in movie time (who knows how long it actually took) that it just seemed to easy to figure out where she was.
I thought the Tusken camp itself was pretty cool.
First time we get to see how they live and their women and children.
But when he finally gets to his mom, I felt her actual death scene was really cliche and poorly acted.
Then there’s the huge payoff as he’s holding her dead body and those crazy strings start to play like something out of Psycho and he gets this crazed look.
The hair on my neck stood up because I knew shit was about to get very VERY bad for these sand people.
This is a moment where Hayden really nailed it.
ThatScoobyDoom: It was handled way better in the novelization, where we actually read about her going missing and Kleg losing his leg.
It gave the whole story a real arc and more time to develop.
Yeah, it was.
“He gets there to rescue him, she sees him again, then dead” is a total paint-by-numbers cliche, but it works for what it is.
That moment when he rolls the single tear then goes into his frenzy or do you mean later at the homestead?
@Fitzman73: I meant in the Tusken camp, but now that you mention it my sentiment applies to both really.
I know some people shit on that homestead scene because he’s a little whiny and over the top at first, but when he confesses to slaughtering all the Tuskens because he hates them, fucking nailed it for me.
The movie novelizations are really underestimated.
I can’t tell people enough that if you feel at all cheated by the prequels, you need to read the novelizations.
There’s so much additional stuff in there, motivations, internal monologues, etc, that enhance the actual films and make up for some of the shortcomings of what got to the screen.
Same with Clone Wars.
We’ve said it a million times but that series really does improve the prequel trilogy as a whole.
ThatScoobyDoom: Well, and I can’t believe I’M the one defending this movie, I wouldn’t call him whiny in the homestead scene.
The dude just found his Mom, probably raped, beaten beyond belief, and she died after seeing he’d come to save her.
You show me somebody that isn’t fuckin’ pissed off and depressed, antisocial, and internalizing, you show me that person and I’ll show you somebody that needs to be locked away on a goddamn prison planet away from people.
I think I said it last time, but I’m going to be reading the Episode III novel soon and I can’t wait.
The best movie of the prequels made better?
Speaking of TCW, did you happen to read the movie novel?
@Fitzman73: There was a Clone Wars movie novelization?
I was not aware of that.
That was a weird time for me to say the least.
My first kid was born right as that movie came out, he was maybe 2 or 3 months old at the time, so I hate to admit it but I missed a few things at the beginning of Clone Wars’ life.
This just in, breaking news.
Anakin was NOT aware of Obi-Wan’s history with Satine.
The first proof comes during the first 90 seconds of S2 epsiode 13 “Voyage Of Temptation”.
He senses Obi-Wan’s anxiety around her and Obi-Wan blows him off saying “Never mind, it was all in the past”, Anakin is surprised and says “Oh, you’re close to her?” to which Obi-Wan snaps back at his “I *knew* her. But that was along time ago”.
Anakin lets it go, but you can see by his expression he’s thinking “Holy shit he had a GIRLFRIEND??”
So I think it’s right then that Anakin starts to feel like maybe his marriage to Padme isn’t that crazy after all.
ThatScoobyDoom: Yes, only released in hardcover…which is why I’ve never read it.
Well, it was a good theory I had! Lol
Most definetly, he could only have been encouraged by it.
@Fitzman73: I think you have this season, it’s worth watching.
I just watched Mandalore Plot and Voyage Of Temptation, forgot how great those were, how much good character development there is.
So was there ever any doubt as to who Darth Tyranous was the first time you saw this movie?
They have the big reveal at the end and it’s played like it was meant to be a twist but I remember thinking well duh no shit it’s him.
ThatScoobyDoom: I do, but I have a bad memory…so bad in fact, I just rewatched it 3 months ago.
Alot of great shit in season 2, one had some struggles but 2 got it going good.
Yeah, no big surprise at all.
Who the fuck else could it be?
My big question was who is Sifo-Dias?
And the old EU had an answer!
Wanna know what that was?
And then I can tell you the real answer. 😉
ThatScoobyDoom: Wait, did they tell his story on TCW?
If so, fuck this Legends nonsense, tell me that first!!!
@Fitzman73: I’ll have to report back. Lol.
I forget all the details, but it’s episode 10 of S6 “The Lost One”.
I don’t think they tell you everything but you definitely get most of it.
What does Legends say?
ThatScoobyDoom: Credit where credit is due, this comes from The Complete STAR WARS Encyclopedia by Stephen J. Sansweet & Pablo Hidalgo and Bob Vitas & Daniel Wallace with Chris Cassidy, Mary Franklin, & Josh Kushins.
The mysterious Jedi who was said to have placed the order for the clone army grown on Kamino.
Sifo-Dyas was a close friend of Count Dooku, and knew of Dooku’s this dissatisfaction with the Republic.
Dooku later murdered Sifo-Dyas, both to cover his tracks and to demonstrate his allegiance to the cause of the Sith.
Sifo-Dyas’s body was kept in stasis on Serenno, and Dooku used it for blood transfusions for General Grievous.
Dooku also gave Sifo-Dyas’s Lightsaber to Grievous.
Pretty interesting, no?
Here’s what he looked like.
@Fitzman73: Yeah totally.
It’s funny, what happens in Clone Wars it a little like this.
Not as grandiose though.
I’ll rewatch it and give you the low down.
I remember a lot but I want to give you the right info.
ThatScoobyDoom: I shall expect an update soon.
What else is there that we haven’t touched on?
The Jango/Kenobi fight on Kamino, did we talk about that?
@Fitzman73: Ok just watched that episode.
What follows are SPOILERS so anyone that hasn’t seen S6 ep 10 of Clone Wars can jump ahead unless they don’t mind having it spoiled.
******** BEGIN SPOILERS ***********
The Jedi get a distress call from a ship that went missing many years prior.
Plo Koon is sent to investigate and ends up finding the ship crashed on a barren wasteland planet.
They check the wreckage and he finds Sifo Dyas’ lightsaber but no trace of the Jedi.
Yoda confirms it is his, and that they never found it when he died.
There’s some exposition where they reveal he sat on the council prior to the blockade of Naboo (pre-Ep1) but they booted him because of his extreme views.
They say he kept saying hes saw a great conflict coming and wanted to raise an army to prepare for it.
The council obviously rejected the notion at the time.
They check the archive records and Jocasta Nu explains that Sifo Dyas was sent to negotiate peace between warring tribes on Fellucia, but the negotiations failed and he was killed.
They can’t access the records of what happened to his body however because all other information has been sealed by the office of the Supreme Chancellor.
Yoda goes to speak with Palps to find out why he sealed the files.
Palps claims to not know who Sifo Dyas is.
Since it was before his time he tells Yoda to check with Chancellor Vallorum.
Obi-Wan and Anakin go to Fellucia and question the natives who were present.
They find out another Jedi was with Sifo Dyas when he died and afterwards his body was cremated.
Yoda talks with Vallorum and finds out that he and the senate had secretly dispatched Sifo Dyas to make a deal with the Pike Syndicate, a powerful member of the spice cartel.
They were afraid a full scale war in the Coruscant underworld was about to break out and he was supposed to keep that from happening.
The Jedi were never told because the Senate committee in charge wanted it kept quiet.
The negotiations were delayed before they began because of problems on Fellucia and the Jedi assigning Sifo Dyas to deal with that.
So the secret mission had to wait.
Yoda asks who the second Jedi was, Vallorum said there was no other Jedi, only his own personal aid went with him and both were killed.
Meanwhile, Sidious is pissed at Dooku and tells him he better clean up his loose ends because the Jedi are following a trail.
Dooku says he left no trail but he will visit the Pikes on Obidyah and make sure.
Obi-Wan and Anakin are also sent there see if the Pikes know anything.
They talk to tje Pike leader and see that he’s wearing the same necklace that Vallorum’s aid wore with the chancellor’s emblem on it.
They confront him about it and he immediately admits the aid is there on Obidyah.
He tells them that a man named Tyranous wanted Sifo Dyas dead and paid them well to shoot down his ship.
They gave Sifo Dyas’ body to Tyranous but secretly kept the chancellor’s aid prisoner as insurance.
They take Obi-Wan and Anakin to see the chancellor’s aid who of course is now crazy as a shit house rat.
Dooku shows up.
He kills a bunch of the Pikes on the way to the prison cell where Obi-Wan and Anakin are still talking to the aid.
He’s about to reveal who was really behind Sifo Dyas’ death when suddenly starts choking to death because you guessed it, Dooku.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fight Dooku (badass fight)
The Pikes show up in force and the leader calls Dooku “Tyranous” to which of course Obi-Wan is like Whhhaaat?
And Dooku tells him hey dummy I told you everything on Geonosis you just didn’t believe me.
He says Obi-Wan should’ve joined him like Sifo Dyas did.
More badass fighting.
The council now knows that Dooku was behind the clone army all along.
That their enemy created their army for them.
They have no idea why he would do that but they also point out that if the public were to know this, confidence in the war would be shattered.
Yoda decrees that to avoid a public backlash they must hide their discovery, not even the Chancellor must know.
They acknowledge that they’re caught in the web of Sith Lord and that for now they have to play along and try to win the war as quickly as possible before he’s able to complete whatever he’s planning.
So I guess really this episode just gives more background and confirmation of what we already knew/suspected all along.
***** END SPOILERS *******
The Jango/Obi-Wan fight was tits.
I liked the way they made Jango’s jet pack go crazy and blow up.
It was a cool nod to what eventually would happen to Boba.
That’s alot of information to disect.
And yeah, it does just confirm everything we already guessed, but it’s nice to finally know for sure what happened.
Nice to know Valorum came back too.
And having that fight in the rain was something new as well.
Going back to the beginning, what did you think of Dex?
@Fitzman73: I had mixed feelings on Dex.
The voice really didn’t work well for me for some reason.
I thought the diner itself was an interesting but looked almost too real world for my taste.
I liked Dex, I was glad when he reappeared in The Clone Wars Wild Space novel.
I was hoping he’d pop up on the series but it sounds like he didn’t.
So how did you feel when Episode II was over?
@Fitzman73: I mean I don’t hate him, he just didn’t do it for me.
I liked that Obi-Wan had this old contact though, that was cool.
He wasn’t in Clone Wars but there was a Jedi general of his species in season 5.
When it was over?
First, I wanted to see it again immediately.
Second, I just felt anxious for the next one.
Your mind is just racing.
You’ve just seen what “the clone wars” mentioned in ep4 looks like and your mind is filled with possibilities as to what would be coming in the next film.
And also, dread because I knew the next one would see bad stuff happen.
ThatScoobyDoom: I understand.
I thought it was cool that Obi-Wan had an old friend/contact that he could go to as well, you could tell simply by the look in his (Kenobi) eyes that these dudes have a deep history.
That’s something I want to explore a bit, the concept of The Clone Wars as an what it was and what it became.
Lucas mandated that nobody could flesh that out for many years because he wanted to do it, so by the time Attack Of The Clones came out you guys had no clue what The Clone Wars were beyond some vauge mention by a crazed wizard of it being a great war.
When you heard the title “Attack Of The Clones” did you immediately think “oh shit, CLONE WARS ARE COMING!!!”?
No I didn’t.
I don’t know why I was blind to that at first but it wasn’t until Yoda says “Not victory. Begun. The Clone War. Has.” that I was like Oh SHIT!
This is THE clone war.
I don’t know why but even with all the talk of clones and stuff I just thought the clone war was something else entirely.
I thought for sure someone else would make a clone army and it would be another war in the future that had to two fighting each other and that’s why it was called “the clone war”.
I get chills every time Yoda delivers that line.
ThatScoobyDoom: That line is perfect in everyway.
You feel Yoda’s sadness that it’s come to this.
That is surprising for some reason.
Did you think Episode III would be the war, or at least more than we got?
@Fitzman73: I had no idea that it would start out with essentially the final battle of the Clone Wars.
I knew a lot of stuff had to fit in 2 hours but yeah I never suspected Dooku would be dead in the first 15 minutes and Grievous was almost a non factor after such a buildup.
ThatScoobyDoom: I wanna delve deeper into that in just a bit, but back to Ep II.
Did you get that soundtrack and/or comic adaptation?
@Fitzman73: Yep, both.
Got them the day they came out.
It’s always fun to listen to the score and imagine what will be on the screen.
ThatScoobyDoom: The only Soundtrack I was able to get was Episode I’s.
It’s great to read comics or novels with it playing softly in the background.
You said when II ended you felt anxious for III, at that time, Episode III was going to be the last Star Wars movie ever as far as you knew, was there any sadness mixed in?
@Fitzman73: Oh for sure, that was definitely in the back of my mind.
Not so much right at the end of ep2 but by the time the build up to ep3’s release started it was definitely weighing heavily.
After the OT there were always whispers of more movies, and even though it took awhile I think most fans knew it was just a matter of time.
But when episode was gearing up George said flat out, this is it, I’m done, said all I wanted to say, THE END.
And so for me that was kind of heavy.
Obviously, and thankfully, that turned out to not be the case and we only had to wait a few years before we got The Clone Wars, and now looking into the near and distant future it doesn’t seem like there will EVER be a world without new Star Wars again.
As we’ve said in the past, there are interviews in novels where George said there were supposed to be 9 movies, PT, OT, ST.
Rebel Force Radio has been finding these old clips of Hamill interviews saying Lucas talked to him about coming back in 2003 to play old Luke.
So looking back, after III, I find it so strange that George was doing the whole “That’s it, it’s done!” thing, even considering the backlash.
I know, right?
Be it Sequels, Stand-Alones, or TV, The future isn’t clouded for the frachise.
When did the first trailer, and really the hardcore build up, for III hit?
@Fitzman73: The first thing I remember people losing their shit over was the first image of Jedi Anakin.
People went berserk “Holy shit he’s got an episode 4 style haircut!”.
You know I actually can’t even at the moment remember where I first saw the episode III trailer.
Isn’t that sad?
ThatScoobyDoom: For Episode III?
What image was that?
That was only like 10 years ago, man.
@Fitzman73: I’m pretty sure it was this one or one very similar.
Everyone was like oh wow he looks so scruffy and ep 4 now.
Plus people lost their shit over his outfit because it was an old OT concept design for Luke that they never used.
I know, I’m old though.
I do remember the Vader/Frankenstein footage of the table rising up and thinking oh no, what are they doing??
I was glad those specific shots didn’t make it into the final film.
They looked cheezy as fuck.
I also remember the lightsaber fight on the lava platform too, but honestly that’s almost all I can remember
ThatScoobyDoom: Ah, yeah I can see it now. Probably the robe.
I liked how his Jedi Tunic amd whatnot was a hint at Vader’s look in a way.
I was gonna say, didn’t they reshoot that to have his arms down?
It still has a very Frankenstienian feel to it.
We’ll go back to the beginning in a few but that right there, lets get into it and start with that scene.
That scene seems to be the lightning rod of the whole movie, most hate it.
What did you feel about the true Rise of Lord Vader the first time you saw it?
@Fitzman73: Yeah they changed it so his arms were down.
Which made it a bit less ridiculous looking.
First what I did like. Lol.
I liked the beginning of that scene where they’re operating on him and cross cutting with Padme.
I liked seeing his robot legs being attached and stuff.
I really loved the mask going on.
So frightening, so sad.
That being said, I felt the lighting was weird for some reason, and him breaking out his restraints was straight up campy and dumb.
Way too “monster” movie for my taste.
The “no” doesn’t bother me except his body language was a bad choice, his arms should’ve stayed down and flexed and just his head would lean back like an NFL lineman after a sack.
The shaking his fists business was too much.
ThatScoobyDoom: I liked the editing back and forth too, it’s sorta “as 2 lives end…3 begin” in a way.
I’m about too defend that which has been charged as indefensible.
See, alot of folks say that was too big for Star Wars.
I don’t agree with that, I think that Sidious’s bigness was so over the top with the laughs, the no’s, the battles, and everything else he does just to give us a good level for this.
I think it works.
Look, no caring person will ever go through this.
We’ll never be betrayed by our best friend and our wife, almost murder our wife, get mutilated by said best friend, be brought back from the brink of death by a manipulative melted monkey faced man, and told “oh, by the way, you killed your wife and kid in your rage”, so I think the extreme reaction fits the extreme situation.
@Fitzman73: Yeah like I said, his scream doesn’t bother me that much, at least not nearly as much as other people.
ThatScoobyDoom: I mean the whole thing, flailing arms and all.
So what was your feeling going into this one?
Did the soundtrack get you all nerd wet?
I remember getting the CD and immediately thinking the soundtrack was way cooler than episode 2.
I couldn’t wait to see it on screen.
My feeling going into this one was a little weird.
The morning of opening day, we got phone call that my wife’s aunt had died suddenly so all the excitement I had building up was gone.
She insisted that I go ahead and see the movie with my dad but my heart was only half in it.
And all the death and sadness in the film really did have a strange effect on me after that news.
I was still able to enjoy it, but not like I would have.
ThatScoobyDoom: Just based on what we hear in the movie, totally agreed.
So much more going on in that score than II.
Damn, sucks when anybody dies suddenly…and this definetly isn’t a movie you want to go into the first time feeling any sort of down because it’s depressing as fuck.
Going back a ways, but still…sorry for that man.
Did you absorb any of it during that viewing?
@Fitzman73: Yeah I was taking it all in, there was just this undercurrent of real life tragedy that was in the back of my mind the whole time.
The fact that it took me out of what was happening in the real world is either a testament to the strength of the film or the shittiness of me as human being, I’m not sure which.
Probably a little of both.
I loved that it opens on a huge space battle unlike anything from the OT.
I forgot to bring up in the ep 2 discussion how that’s the only one of the 6 where the camera pans up instead of down after the opening crawler.
I’ve actually heard a theory that the reason it appears that way is because the shot is intentionally upside down so really it does “pan down” it just appears to be going up because of way the Naboo ship is being tracked.
ThatScoobyDoom: This might sound haughty or cold, but in times like that, and trust me I’ve had quite a few myself, we tend to not want to deal with the reality of our own shitty situations.
Once you got the imprimatur from the wife, you probably mentally said fuck it and dove right in, knowing that for 2 hours and change you had the chance to open up for the last time and embrace the laserbolts and lifesavers before dealing with the true shit storm that tears through your life after a death in the family.
Has nothing to do with the movie or your lack of humanity.
Yes, that was probably…fuck it, for my money, that is the absolute best opening to a Star Wars movie!
It grabs you by the through and doesn’t let go until Anakin pulls a Harrison Ford and lands as safely as he possibly can on that airfield…which I want to ask you about the logistics of.
Why the hell do they need a strip of land that long?
Do the bigger ships take off amd land like airplanes, needing long runways to get to or come down from high speeds?
Yes, I think Witwer mentioned that in the Rebel Force Radio commentary.
I think he said it’s a subtle sign that it’s going to be a slightly off kilter movie or something like that.
I noticed that upon my second go through of the movies.
@Fitzman73: I never cared for the hot landing sequence to be honest.
It seemed really odd or impossible to pull off.
Plus it has some of the worst dialog and delivery of the whole movie.
I always thought it was just a large landing pad, not that they used it like a runway but like giant parking lot.
The ships in Star Wars definitely don’t need that much room to take off.
obviously they need some but not that much.
ThatScoobyDoom: I liked the sequence but hate the dialouge, though I think Obi-Wan had a great tag.
I should really watch III again, for a few reasons, but I always got the vibe that this was a normal thing for Anakin only this time he was only landing half of a ship with a lot less control.
Seems like a waste of space though, knowing how Coruscant is you’d think that much open/unused space wouldn’t be allowed.
They love jamming shit into that City/Planet.
My memory sucks, have we ever seen a star destroyer actually lift off?
Or for that matter, land?
I remember seeing them close to the ground but never on it.
@Fitzman73: A star destroyer, no I don’t think we’ve ever seen one land but Republic battleships which were basically the first star destroyers, we have seen those at the end of ep2 taking off.
Anakin landing the ship definitely does work better for me now because we did see him do super hero-ish stuff in the Clone Wars.
But in 2005 all we’d really seen was episode 2 Anakin and to just jump into episode 3 and now this dude is crash landing ships from orbit with no casualties seemed like, huh?
ThatScoobyDoom: I feel like I’m getting really pedantic, but weren’t those airbourne already?
This is true, again it seems it’s a case of “TCW to the rescue!”.
You dug that space opening though, right?
@Fitzman73: I don’t think so.
Weren’t the clones marching up the loading ramps onto them?
Yeah I dug the opening for sure.
Again some of the dialog, not that great but the action was good and you also got the added surprise of guess what?
Dooku’s dead. Lol.
ThatScoobyDoom: I feel like we saw the Troops loading in and then it cut to the cruisers in the air, but I’ve already admitted to vauge memories about II.
I keep saying I should rewatch it but it hurts too much.
What did you think when you literally saw his fuckin’ head roll?
That was a big shock/delight for me.
Such a mix of emotions too!
@Fitzman73: Oh right, you didn’t see them lift of completely, but they were parked on the ground.
The ones lifting off in the background were going almost straight up like a Harrier jet and then angling up and out of the atmosphere.
I almost shit when he killed Dooku.
What was even more shocking to me was Palpatine almost showing his hand by goading Anakin into doing it.
I was surprised he already had such a strong influence on him.
Yeah, and Anakin even feels a bit of remorse for doing it. But the master manipulator played on his emotions and got him to do it despite his obvious moral quandary.
That Palpatine, he ain’t a nice guy, is he?
And you can see the hatred on Pals face because Anakin is still bound to keep Obi-Wan alive.
@Fitzman73: Oh yeah he was super irritated at that.
He saw the perfect opportunity to be rid of Obi-Wan and when Anakin defied him and insisted on carrying him to safety that was a really good character moment.
He essentially even tells Palps straight up look I don’t leave people, if he dies it’s because we all die.
ThatScoobyDoom: Here’s a question that I have an answer too (and I hope we haven’t discussed this previously, but if so oh well) that I’ve seen before but has been making rhe rounds recently, do you think during the Clone Wars as a whole that Palpatine/Sidious protected Anakin because he knew he wanted him as his apprentice?
@Fitzman73: They’ve brought that up numerous times on RFR during the course of the Clone Wars run, and originally I thought maybe he did, but as the series goes on it becomes more and more clear to me that no, no way was he shielding Anakin.
He was ultimately controlling every aspect of the war on both sides either directly out in the open, in the shadows as Sidious or via the manipulation of third parties who had no idea they were being used as pawns.
The situations he allowed Anakin to get into, the assignments he went on and the battles he fought in were not easy or safe.
And as the RFR discussions always point out, he wouldn’t protect a potential apprentice anyway.
Yes he always knew Anakin was special and wanted him BAD but if he wasn’t good enough to survive the Clone Wars there’s no way he was skilled enough or cunning enough to be a suitable replacement for Dooku.
I think he did have a hand in some of the missions that Anakin was sent on but if anything I think he might have made sure he got harder assignments rather than easier ones.
I’ve never understood the argument that he protected him.
It doesn’t make a bit of sense.
Why would he want an apprentice that couldn’t handle themself?
From Bane down, every Sith’s goal was “if I can’t live to see it myself, I want this order to get stronger and stronger with each generation so that eventually the Sith are strong enough to rule the galaxy forever more”.
To protect Anakin is to weaken him without him ever even knowing it, he must face seemingly insurmountable challenges or he’d never grow stronger.
He’d only be stuck spinning his wheels, never reaching higher levels of power to become worthy of the mantle of the Sith.
Let me ask you this, why do you think Sidious chose Dooku after Maul?
Dooku was far older than Sidious.
Do you think he chose him because he saw something in him that he felt he needed to learn that could further the Sith cause and lead to the downfall of the Jedi?
That Dooku was a fallen Jedi, so he could learn the ways of the Jedi order, learn of a potential weakness in the order that he could exploit, or do you think there was another reason?
I just want to mention Episode II again real quick, I just finished watching it.
1. I don’t remember if I asked you about those Death Star plans, did that make you nerd squee?
2. Did you notice how vaginal Geonosian architecture is?
3. Did you notice that the clear bubble pods on the Trooper transports are mini Death Stars?
4. We do actually see those destroyers take off.
As the kids say, my bad yo.
@Fitzman73: Palpatine is playing a long con, he is the king if patience.
I think it’s a pattern with him (and probably most Sith that came before him), you have your top guy, your active apprentice, but you’re constantly looking for others, you’re constantly grooming potential replacements.
It’s a long process, so it makes sense to have multiple irons in the fire so when and if your top man gets cut in half, well, call down to the minors and bring up the next victim.
So I think, just like with Anakin, Dooku came on his radar at some point and he watched his career with great interest and along the way fed his dissatisfaction with the Jedi, and by the time Maul was killed Dooku was more than willing to become his apprentice.
I think he does take a special joy in corrupting jedi and bringing them over to his side.
They’re already skilled force users and warriors, so they don’t have to be trained from scratch, they’re the perfect group to pluck apprentices from.
As for your episode 2 questions
1. Death Star plans made me shit.
Was not expecting that at all.
That I believe was not in the comic so I was totally shocked by it.
2. Ummm, no….
3. Never really thought of them as mini death stars but I can kinda see that now.
ThatScoobyDoom: We both know I’m a fan of that theory. Lol
It’s Legends now but shit, even Vader did it!
That’s what The Force Unleashed was about, Starkiller was Vader’s secret apprentice.
He was grooming him for whenever Vader decided to challenge Sidious for the throne.
I question the decision to go so much older though, why waste your time with this old dude that is clearly not going to be a part of the future when you could take on a young apprentice and further the cause?
Like we both said, maybe it’s because he’s experianced and Sidious thought he could get a new insight, but he doesn’t need to make him his apprentice to do that.
Seems a waste.
1. I can’t recall if it was in the comic either, and I just read it a last year.
2. Look at the top of the archways and arena battle, when they show Dooku in that skybox watching.
Looks like pussies ta me.
3. Their are alot of mini and pre-Death Star designs in this movie.
4. Nobody likes a show off.
5. Where did the Trooper transports and vehicles come from?
There was no army to use it, the Republic didn’t know about the Clones, how did they have that shit prepped?
@Fitzman73: That was always a little odd to me too.
I understand for dramatic purposes they had to have the clones swoop in at the last second to save the day but that was kind of a “what the hell where’d all this gear come from” moment because prior to that we hadn’t seen any indication that they had all this equipment and weaponry and shit.
I know they did it that way for the surprise reveal at the end but it did seem like it came out of nowhere.
I’m guessing that the Kaminoans outfitted them will all that tech.
I’m sure they had to subcontract it out but it had to be part of the purchase price.
Like you said, this wasn’t already owned by the Republic so Sifo Dyas must’ve ordered everything together.
What good are soldiers with no weapons?
ThatScoobyDoom: That brings up the question of where did Sifo-Dyas get the money for all of this?
1.2 Million Clones, 1.2 Million sets of Armor, 1.2 Million Rifles, Blasters, Launchers, Grenades of different varieties, Transports. Just looking at how the Kaminoans were portrayed in Legends canon, these cold monsters didn’t provide all of this shit out of the kindness of their hearts!
Sifo-Dyas had to embezzled billions from somebody to do it, why did nobody notice that much money not being where it was supposed to be?
@Fitzman73: 2 words: Lost Missions.
ThatScoobyDoom: You funkin’ tease!
Back to Episode III then, where do you fall on the whole “Anakin can see future in his nightmares” bit?
@Fitzman73: At least I’m pretty sure there’s a little explanation for that in the Lost Missions.
There’s an episode or 2 that involves the banking clan and the Republic borrowing money and all that shit.
I think things are revealed there.
It makes sense that he has the gift of sight.
There’s a school of thought (that I agree with) that not all Jedi can see the future.
They can all sense things before they happen but to actually SEE visions is special.
Notice that Obi-Wan doesn’t?
Yoda can and it’s a big deal when Ahsoka starts having them in the Clone Wars.
And Luke has them in Empire, so it makes sense that his dad would have them too.
ThatScoobyDoom: The Republic borrowing from the Banking Clan?
That had to have been some super secret dealings since the Banking Clan were fully in support of the Separatists.
Yeah, makes sense.
Is Anakin the only one that has them in his sleep?
Yoda can settle in and turn on the future sight.
I don’t know how Ahsoka’s visions work, she didn’t really have that ability in Seasons 1-2.
Did Luke have future visions?
@Fitzman73: I’m pretty sure they were.
I’ll have to rewatch and report back.
The way I remember it though, the Banking Clan was mostly neutral and they were lending to both sides.
Money talks and politics walks basically.
You might be right, I don’t remember Anakin having any when he was awake.
I’m pretty sure Ahsoka’s were in her sleep too.
I’m thinking they show up in the last arc of season 5?
Luke definitely had the vision of Han and Leia on Cloud City and saw them in great pain, so not really a far future vision but he was most definitely seeing what might be about to happen.
ThatScoobyDoom: The Muuns were slippery shits, but that dude in II seemed pretty clear as I recall…which it is sad that I have to put “as I recall”, I just watched II 3 fucking days ago, man.
Hmm, could that be the midichlorians of Anakin influancing Snips maybe?
Yes, that is right.
I forgot that.
But, and this is admittedly me being a detail bitch again, was that a vision or a feeling?
@Fitzman73: No he says “I see a city in thr clouds”.
So I think it’s more than just feeling a tremor.
He was pretty clear, but just like the Trade Federation, there are multiple factions and different people influencing events and decisions.
I’ll watch that episode again and see what was really going on there.
We’ll come back to that.
What did you think as Grievous made his weezy way into the pictute?
I know I had a very memorable reaction.
@Fitzman73: I didn’t know what to think.
I thought he was cool as hell but the coughing was unexpected.
It took me a minute to get on board with that.
Also, the voice was not what I expected.
Not sure what I expected based on the advance images but it was a lot tinnier than I thought it would be.
ThatScoobyDoom: I was shocked!
You can see he has organic eyes, that made me wonder what the hell this dudes story was.
He’s almost as bad ass as Maul too me.
Just a pimp look, sound, and style.
Did they ever fully explain his background?
I know episode 10 of season 1 was set in his hideout but I don’t recall delving deep into his history.
@Fitzman73: No not really.
That Clone Wars episode just kind of shows you how he’s like someone addicted to plastic surgery, how he basically replaced all his organic parts on purpose to become a stronger warrior.
They don’t really ever go into his backstory too much.
I remember seeing an advance teaser image of Grievous that was just a closeup of his eye.
You could see part of the mechanical head with the organic eye and people were like what the fuck??
ThatScoobyDoom: That sucks.
As you say, it was hinted at, and I’m not 100% sure of his Legends background, but I think it was something like he was this great warrior that was much feared and respected and he wanted to he even better.
I can understand why.
He has an amazing look.
I’ve seen some say he’s the proto-Vader, Palpatine was screwing around with hybrid mandroid shit just incase.
Thoughts on that?
@Fitzman73: I’ve heard that too that he was the prototype Vader.
I’m not sure where I sit on that.
At first I thought yeah I can see that, but the more I’ve thought about it over the years I don’t think Palpatine had much to do with him at all.
I don’t know this for a fact, but I can’t think of a time other than his first appearance in ep 3 where he actually speaks directly to Sidious.
In Clone Wars he is usually dealing with Dooku.
But obviously his tech and bionic parts are a good foreshadowing device or preview of Vader from a storytelling perspective.
There’s also a little backstory in the Clone Wars micro series that is supposed to explain his cough.
This is of course NOT canon, but in that series he fights Mace Windu and Mace beats his ass and force crushes his lungs which gibes him that cough.
ThatScoobyDoom: Well, Dooku is just a proxy for Sidious.
Sidious gives and order, Dooku figures out how to get it done, then he gives a report on how it all went down and works.
I could see Dooku working out the kinks, giving Sidious a full technical read out, Sidious now has this new knowledge, Dooku gets dead, some other stuff happens, the Jedi fall, Vader is born, sent to Mustafar, meets Obi-Wan…suddenly, Sidious has a use for all the knowledge that he had Dooku spend 3-5 years (or more, we really have no clue where Grevious comes in at) experimenting with and perfecting.
He seems almost like what alot of people speculated that Vader was before Jedi came out, a robot with some man parts.
That’s kinda cool.
I always just guessed he got damaged during the transfer into the metal body.
How about that Grevious theme Williams did?
@Fitzman73: Brilliant as are all of his other themes.
I can’t wait to hear what he’s written for Episode 7.
Probably what will end up some day as the “canon” reason for Greivous’ cough will be more like what you described.
His lungs are basically out in the open it seems.
It was too hard for Obi Wan to open him up and expose those organs so I’m gonna guess that is not conducive to preventing lung infections.
ThatScoobyDoom: I feel like it’s almost a waste for me too talk about about Williams music because I know nothing about music.
All I can say is “damn, that’s good” or “that sounds awesome”.
That’s how I feel about all of it, just amazing.
I really wish I had the soundtracks for III and V.
Yeah, and if he’s been on the run and traveling to all of these different worlds, who knows, he may have picked up some form of spore that got in there and is causing a degeneration.
What did you think about finally seeing a good chunk of Kashyyyk?
@Fitzman73: Taking the conversation back for a sec, I rewatched the Clovis arc from the Lost Missions and I was only partly right.
They don’t say how the Clones were funded, but they do show that the banking clan is “neutral” in the war with both sides borrowing money from them and agreeing to leave that planet alone and keep the banks stable.
Then the main plot o this arc is the discovery of corruption in the banking clan (duh) and Sidious manufacturing all this intrigue between the Seperatists and Republic so that eventually he gets himself (Palpatine) appointed head of the banks so the Republic controls the main bank on Scipio.
It’s a surprisingly good.
And I still maintain that somewhere they mention how the clones were paid for but it wasn’t in this arc.
I loved seeing that in episode 3 but I was pretty disappointed in how short it was.
I really liked seeing the beach and ocean and stuff since we’ve only ever heard of it being a forest world.
It was more like a jungle.
ThatScoobyDoom: So in that series they showed him getting EVEN MORE power then the shit loads we see forked over in the movies?
Right on, the mystery persists.
I think they said on the Blu that they based it on what little we saw in the Holiday special.
That level is fun as shit on Battlefront II.
I wanna lead this into Order 66, but what do you think about all those planets we saw during the execution of said Order?
So now not only does he control the Republic AND the Separatists, now he controls the banks too.
It’s pretty easy to see how he just flicks a switch one day and becomes Emperor.
Like, who’s gonna stop him?
He literally controls everything but the Jedi themselves, and, well……Order 66 takes care of that.
First time I saw those planets I was like oh shit where have these been?
They were all so cool looking.
Fellucia looked a little cartoony to me but the ash planet that Ki Adi Mundi was on looked awesome.
I wanted to see more of them, and again, it’s Clone Wars that eventually delivers.
I think they spend episodes on all of those planets, some multiple times.
ThatScoobyDoom: And it seems like he was going to take over the Jedi too if Mace hadn’t been all like “fuck that, this is our shit. Lets get him.”.
Everybody was grappling for power.
While I totally agree about Fellucia looking cartoony, I think it’s the most beautiful of all of those planets.
Juxtapose that with the horror that takes place there and it’s a moment of sheer depression.
Lets get into it, how did you feel that first time, especially when taking your personal feelings going into it, when you saw Order 66 being played out?
The betrayal, the dramatic score playing under it, the cold blooded instant death that was dealt, it emotional.
I got chills.
When Obi-Wan gets blasted and he falls off the cliff with his lizard mount and it lets out that cry on tbe way down, it’s honestly still hard for me to watch.
ThatScoobyDoom: The part that really hits me is when Yoda clutches his chest and drops his stick.
The animators did an amazing job displaying his emotion.
That’s gut wrenching.
Obi-Wan splashing down is a tough watch too.
And going back to Fellucia, the way the clones keep firing on Aayla even after she falls down is just pure brutality.
This is what I wonder though, was this George saying “fuck, everybody’s bitching at me about how light these prequels are. What can I do to make them see it’s not just Gungans and Twin Sunshine? Hmm, lets kill some babys!” Because this whole ending is just a huge series of “fuck it, lets go for broke” moments.
What do you think about that?
ThatScoobyDoom: No he definitely had this planned from the start.
I remember very early on him saying the third one is going to end badly.
There was talk at first that he was prepared to go for an R rating even.
I don’t think it had anything to do with complaints.
If it did, I’m sure Jar Jar would’ve been first to get fried.
Yeah Aayla Secura’s death was almost over the line in terms of just cold blooded brutality.
Ki Adi’s was rough too.
Did you know that if you watch closely his arm gets blown the fuck off?
ThatScoobyDoom: R rated Star Wars?
That would have been different.
That would have definitely changed Hollywood.
A big summer spectacle film never goes that hardcore, it would have made studios take chances with Summer movies the same way The Hangover made them with comedies.
I doubt he would have taken Jar Jar out, that’s a character that, despite all of the hate, he still likes and that takes precedent over whiners.
Totally, none of the others really strike me as too much.
I’m getting ready to pop my Blu in and check this!
What did you think about the massacre of the younglings?
@Fitzman73: Aside from the terrible child acting?
I thought that was pretty hardcore.
But at the same time it suffered the same way Anakin’s actual “fall to the dark side” scene suffered.
It happened too fast.
I know that was a limitation of the running time but one minute he’s on the fence and the next he’s killing babies.
I would’ve liked to see the change spread out a little more gradually.
I found it hard to believe that he changed that much in a few seconds.
Again though, shifting into broken record mode, this is a shortcoming of the films that the Clone Wars series really smooths out.
They don’t necessarily get to fix it completely but there’s WAY more development in that show and you get glimpses of that darkness simmering under the surface.
That show gives you enough that you start to buy it that by the time of episode 3, yeah this dude is fucked up and Palpatine has him so far on the hook and he’s been fucked over by the Jedi enough times that yeah, he could totally snap and turn on a dime.
ThatScoobyDoom: Terrible and child acting are almost synonyms, Potter is the rare exception.
We have talked about that a bit, having thought about it a bit more sense, even without TCW, if you think about it, Anakin had no choice.
When he stopped Mace in hopes of saving Padme, he turned his back on the Jedi.
He had no choice but to do everything Sidious told him to do, if he turned his back on Sidious too he would have had the Jedi and the Sith (and that’s basically the whole galaxy) on his ass, hunting him like a rogue Nerf.
Sidious offered him protection from the Jedi, taking out the younglings in that way ensured his future and cleared the road ahead.
Also, he told Padme in the past (in Attack of the Clones I believe) that he basically supported a dictatorship, so it’s not a huge surprise.
Again, even after 2 seasons and a movie, I agree.
Anybody that skips TCW is missing so much.
@Fitzman73: And I think that was pretty much how George set it up, that he had basically painted himself into a very dark corner.
But man, seems like there might’ve been other alternatives to slaughtering jedi younglings.
I guess the point though is that by that time all the way until he sees Padme on Mustafar, “Anakin” has left the building and has completely shut that side of himself off, like blackout drunk on dark side energy.
ThatScoobyDoom: Naw man, what better way to cripple the order than to take out the ones in training?
It killed their future for at least 20-25 years, lets the Sith spread their Empire to the far reaches before having to worry about a strong uprising of force wielders.
So it’s a 2 Birds One Stone scenario, it shut Anakin down like you said, but it also creates the perfect path of least resistance for Sidious to take over the Galaxy.
Lets get to Mustafar, were you shocked by any of that scene on the landing pad?
@Fitzman73: The only part that shocked me was that he didn’t actually kill her.
I did let out a gasp when he force choked her though.
I thought Obi-Wan’s lines were great.
Hayden could’ve dialed it down a bit, but otherwise it was pretty great.
The trigger for the moment we all waited 30 years to see.
ThatScoobyDoom: I was shocked that it took Obi-Wan so long to come down the ramp.
I can understand he wanted Padme to learn the truth but shit, help a sistah out dude.
The choke was another of those moments of sheer brutality, after spending the whole movie talking about loving he turned into a derp.
Loved her and hugged her and squeezed her til her fuckin’ eyes popped out is what he about did.
Agreed on Hayden and Obi’s lines.
Speaking of Obi-Wan, I always laugh in that scene when he pulls his lightsaber.
It’s very clear Ewan thought that would be the moment of ignition, but instead he’s left looking like an drama queen with that flurish.
@Fitzman73: Right with his signature 2 finger point.
I wonder how long it took Ewan to come up with that?
Or if it was Nick Gillard who thought of it.
Or more likely it was George saying “uhhh yeah, do something with your hands, yeah, that’ll be cool”.
When the sabers did ignite, were you satisfied by the duel to end all duels?
ThatScoobyDoom: I like that point.
I’m talking aboyt right there on the landing platform where he pulls his hilt and kinda flicks his wrist.
They cut to Anakin, then cut back to Obi-Wan, and THEN Obi-Wan’s blade ignites.
It’s fucking hilarious, but it always takes me out of it for just a sec.
It would be interesting to know where that 2 finger thing came from though.
Start to finish, without a shadow of a doubt, the best lightsaber fight I’ve ever seen.
The choreography, the lava erupting and splattering, that tower thingy, the weaving in and out/back and forth on the river, it’s a breathtaking series of images.
Did you ever see that Lion King meme?
@Fitzman73: I never noticed that before.
I wonder if that was intentional or a goof in the editing.
I’ll watch for that next time.
I liked that fight too.
A lot of people bitched because it was blue saber on blue saber so it wasn’t as easy to see whose blade was whose, but I didn’t mind that at all.
I actually would’ve like to see it get a little more physical, we get a taste a few times where they kick or punch each other but a lot of it was too clean and controlled, it was almost TOO pretty.
I would’ve like for them to get a little more emotional or savage, turn it into more and more of a street fight the longer they battle.
Really the only complaint I have is with the way it ends.
After that big long epic battle with neither person having an advantage, Anakin thinks he’s going to somersault over Obi-Wan and NOT got diced?
I don’t buy it.
That felt like extremely lazy writing.
Like ok we’ve had this giant awesome fight how do we end it?
Uh I no idea, let’s just have him do something completely nonsensical and Obi-Wan chops 3 of his limbs off.
Oh and no I don’t think I’ve seen that Lion King meme.
ThatScoobyDoom: It must be editing, it appears they just didn’t have another take.
I think it’s stupid to think, with everything Sidious had him running around the galaxy doing, killing babies, killing the separatist Council, that he had time to sit down and build a red bladed lightsaber.
Add in all the personal worries and conflict, I doubt he was worried about it either.
And I never had a problem following the 2 blue blades, pay attention and there is no problem following the action.
An arguement could be made that they know each other so damn well that it has to be perfect, pretty, smooth.
Think about how many hours they’ve spent training, sparring, side by side, back to back, drilling, going through the paces, making sure their bodies are at the peak of perfection.
All that said, I totally agree.
Anakin had so much anger at Obi-Wan, he told Padme in II that Kenobi was holding him back.
This was the moment to put all of that on the table and be like “this is what you did that lead me here asshole!”, to just throw every frustration he’s had in the last 15 years at him.
That bugged me a bit too.
Not so much that Anakin thought he could hop over Obi-Wan and TADA!!! be the winner, but that they were both exhausted, Anakin makes the jump, then Kenobi makes a surgically precise series of cuts in a millisecond and chops every single one of Anakin’s limbs off…EXCEPT for one which just so happens to be the robot arm that would be strong enough to keep him from sliding completely into the lava pit.
Part of me thinks it might be George tilting one of the franchise trademarks of losing a hand on it’s head, but I think it’s more likely he just wanted to make sure that Anakin was indeed more machine than man and he felt this was the best way to get there given the time constraints he had.
Here’s one of the many versions of that meme, not sure where it all started or where this particular version is from.
I got it off twitter.
@Fitzman73: Holy shit.
That meme is dead on.
Ha ha ha!
Totally, the blue blades never bothered me really either.
For me it was a little surprising that it wasn’t red, not because I thought he should’ve had time to build a new saber, obviously he didn’t.
But as we’ve discussed before, in the old days and in to the prequel era especially when we started to see purple and yellow blades, there was always this kind of common fanboy thought that part of what makes a lightsaber’s color was of course the focusing crystal but also the actual Force of the wielder.
That would explain why Mace is the only Jedi we see with a purple blade.
And it was always my thought that when a Jedi went full Sith their blade just turned red as a reflection of the dark side energy.
Obviously this was never canon or even in an EU novel that I recall, it was just one of those fan circle things that goes around until it becomes a “well it must be canon somewhere” type things.
Of course, we see in episode 3 that it’s not the case at all, and later in the Clone Wars there’s a whole arc following a group of Padawans as they build their first sabers that goes into even more detail.
Pretty great arc and if we ever do another Clone Wars discussion you would probably love the episodes.
So bottom line the Sith must have their own special reserve of red crystals.
As much as I disliked that somersault, I loved the aftermath. It was brutal to watch in the theater.
Probably the most well delivered scene in the whole PT.
The heartbreak on Obi Wan’s face and in his voice is seems so real to me.
Hayden’s “I hate you” was perfectly delivered and the look in his eyes makes you believe it.
That whole exchange trumps the duel for me.
The only part that bothers me, and obviously it had to be this way or else the OT doesn’t happen, is the way Obi-Wan pulls a Bond villain and just walks away and leaves his smoldering body behind without verifying death.
Do you think he knew he was alive?
He had to right?
How could he not sense his life force?
Dark Side clouds everything I guess?
Or did Obi-Wan just leave him burnt up and crippled and left his fate up to the will of the Force?
ThatScoobyDoom: Since seeing that meme, I’ve wondered if my subconscious noticed that and that was why I loved that whole scene, and really all of the movie.
The Lion King is without a doubt my favorite movie ever, so when it’s copied with a slight twist why wouldn’t I like it too?
Ya know, I don’t know if we’ve talked about that theory or if I’ve ever heard it or considered it.
In the history of my fandom, it has always been the crystals dictate color.
But that is interesting, I’m guessing at the height of the Republic, the Jedi had the luxury of being able to get different colors of crystals.
During the OT, and immediately after, resources were so thin, hell the order was so fractured, that nobody had the ability to have fancy colored blades.
Blue was obviously the most popular color so that would be the one we see.
Sounds like a good arc, I yearn to see (own) the rest of that show!
“YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!” That line hurts every goddamn time!
That whole part works for me, battle, aftermath, everything.
Anakin is seething, and you can tell he wants to do more but can’t.
Ah, I can explain this!…but it makes other things a bit confusing.
He walks away because Anakin is basically dead, he can see and sense that he’s alive.
But once his body goes up in flames he figures he’s dead anyway.
Burnt to a crisp, 3/4ths limbless, and not an adequate medcenter anywhere within parsecs, no medkit can heal that, bacta can only do so much, problem solved!
Now how does this confuse things?
Unless Obi-Wan runs into Vader sometime between III & IV, how the hell does he know Anakin and Vader are one and the same?
We know the light side of the Force is shrouded by the dark, so he probably can’t sense it.
I don’t know.
But to me, it’s clear he thinks he’s dead or dying.
He mustn’t have told Padme he was dying, her dying words are that there’s still good in him.
Or did he see Sidious’s ship coming and figure that Anakin was too far gone?
Just let fried monkey face deal with it.
This is one of those kinks that George didn’t iron out as well as he could have.
@Fitzman73: I’d have to rewatch the scene of Obi-Wan and Yoda watching the surveillance footage of Anakin wrecking the temple, but for some reason I think there’s a part where he is reporting back to Sidious and they hear him called “Vader”.
In that season 5 arc, you get to see that those crystals aren’t just some rare gem that costs a fortune to buy or a resource that the Jedi have stockpiles of.
To acquire a crystal is actually a test much like Luke’s test in the cave on Dagobah.
The crystal only shows itself when the Padawan is ready.
Kind of like Harry Potter where the “wand chooses the wizard”.
You don’t just get to say I want a green one.
You get what gets you.
But yeah that Force influenced color theory has been around at least in my brain since long before there were published schematics showing what parts make up a saber.
Their construction method wasn’t always so official.
I can see where he just figured he’s almost dead so just leave him, but that seems kind of un-Jedi to just let something suffer until it dies.
I guess he just couldn’t detach enough emotionally to put him out of his misery.
ThatScoobyDoom: Huh, I’ll have to rewatch and see.
I don’t recall that but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
All the great groundwork shit was in season 5.
Remember, Obi-Wan said he couldn’t kill him.
…he has no problem maiming and disfiguring him, but he can’t bring himself to give the deathblow.
***update*** I bow to you, Master Fitz. The holovid shows them the birth of Vader.
@Fitzman73: ***Pauses for applause break***
That’s from within the temple as well though, so it’s not from the “henceforth you shall be known as” scene in Palpatine’s office, but from after the massacre.
Sidious enters the temple to see the results and congratulate Vader.
Season 5 was a real pisser.
5 and 6 together will blow your mind apart with all the cool reveals and explanations.
So what’s your take on why Sidious rescued Vader?
He was like you said crisped up and crippled, mostly dead, why not shit can him and get a healthy apprentice?
Had his bond with Anakin grown that strong or was he just impressed that he had willed himself to stay alive?
Or was it his own pride that he couldn’t let his immaculately conceived Force son die?
ThatScoobyDoom: Yeah, I got autocorrected, I meant baptisim of Vader.
He’s just commited his very first act as a member of the Dark Side, before that it was all theory.
Now it’s practice time.
The Henceforth is the birth but killing the babies was where he got the magic water thrown at him.
Sadness I feel, see them I can’t.
After he’s killed the babies, wiped out the Separatist Council, and battled a full fledged battle against a Master Jedi (even though he lost), and he’s still alive!
He’s got a higher midichlorian count than the oldest, wisest, most powerful Jedi the galaxy has to offer at this point, he’s got something, be it will or stubbornness, that makes him worthy.
He wasn’t soft on Vader, nobody was, but he’s still clinging to life, who count be better than him?
Why waste time looking for a new apprentice when you have one right here?
His body has already accepted cybernetics, add some more and roll with it.
You mentioned his immaculate birth, Sidious knows that well too.
He, just like everybody else, thinks this boy was forged by the Force for a reason, for greatness,Sidious believes that reason, that greatness, is to serve at his side!
@Fitzman73: Where do you stand on the whole “Padme died of a broken heart” debate?
There’s recently been a lot of renewed focus on that with some pretty interesting theories coming out.
ThatScoobyDoom: I buy her dying of a broken heart because I’ve actually seen it happen sort of.
This may sound a bit stupid or reaching, but fuck anybody that denys it.
We had these 2 Boxers, one was like a mother to the other.
The one that was the “daughter” was hyper as fuck!
Bouncing off the goddamn walls, man!
So, finally, nature happens and our Mama dies She was a beautiful dog that we all miss to this day, but there was another death that day.
As soon as her Mama died the “daughter” changed dramaticly.
She was truly lost man, you could see it in her eyes, she was just done.
Few months later, she still hadn’t gone back to normal, she died.
So, I think it’s 100% possible…but George has said many times that he laid alot if shit into these movies that folks will spend years finally uncovering.
I’m a dude that tends to take shit at face value, I could be wrong about the intent of it.
What are some of the theories?
@Fitzman73: Well one is of course that Sidious actually reaches out with the Force and snuffs her out just so he can tell Vader she’s dead and have that hanging over him.
This one I don’t buy though because if he could do that then he’d certainly know she was pregnant and about to have Anakin’s babies.
I would think.
Another one is that when the twins were born, suddenly she was missing two huge deposits of midichlorians and the shock to her system was too much and she died, or finally succumbed to her any injuries she might’ve gotten from being choked out.
This one I find pretty interesting and I think that may have definitely contributed to her death but probably not what “killed” her.
Of course I really don’t buy that such a strong person, a woman who just had two babies, is going to be like fuck it Anakin’s a horrible person guess I’ll just die now.
So there’s got to be more to it
ThatScoobyDoom: Well, I don’t buy that fully, now maybe he reached out and felt that she had died, but I doubt he killed her that way.
So that’s out the window.
What about ladies that have twins all across the galaxy?
Even taking the “injuries” into account, this seems thin too.
It’s not like he beat her, he just choked her.
I didn’t get the feeling that he choked her out, she just seemed to collapse for exhaustion.
I feel she’s far stronger than that.
Love can twist people, especially in a case where it’s forbidden and they had such big plans to be together forever.
For him to be so far gone so quickly, I can buy it.
If a theory comes along that makes sense I’ll gladly entertain it.
And I understand my doggy story is different than a human story, but to watch a creature that’s supposed to be inferior to us give up after a death, I can see a human doing it.
And I say death because the Anakin she knew, for all intents and purposes, died.
Do you yourself have a theory?
@Fitzman73: I like to think that the force choke had a lot to do with it.
Coupled with the emotional stress and yes, heartbreak, I think her body just shut down.
Plus, let’s just say it, it was the will of the Force.
It had to happen as part of Anakin’s destiny.
I do wish they had explained it a little different though.
Maybe a better choice of words or something.
Better yet she really should’ve had more extensive injuries to help explain it.
The way it is, it’s just too convenient of a way to get rid of her.
Again, I think that plot point is a victim of trying to fit too much story into one movie.
ThatScoobyDoom: Do you really think she had to die?
She couldn’t have lived and taken the kids and gone into hiding, leaving the Galaxy to think she and her baby died?
It is a bit of a victim of trying to shove 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag, but some of this shit could have been solved simply.
I think we talked about this, but Leia said she remembered her birth mother.
So let Padme live a little bit longer and then have her die when Leia is a toddler.
And, even though it may have pushed the envelope a bit, maybe Anakin should have hit her with the lightsaber or something to drive the whole thing home.
@Fitzman73: I think in the end, they erred on the side of caution.
The movie was already extremely dark, so to add straight up wife beating on top of it all would’ve for sure gotten them a more restrictive MPAA rating.
I don’t think she had to die, but I think Anakin’s connection to her was so great that she wouldn’t have been able to hide.
In fact he even says after he’s told that she dies wait that can’t be I felt her, she was alive when I left her.
And it’s not until after a brief pause, during which I propose he reached out to find her only to have it confirmed, that he knows it’s true and yells the infamous NO!
Yet he doesn’t have that same bond with the children yet because he’s never been in their presence outside of the womb.
If she’d have lived he would be able to feel her and find her or at least know she was alive somehwere and hunt for her.
After seeing episode 3, it changes that whole Leia remembering her mother scene for me.
To me she’s saying yes she remembers her, only barely and when she’s trying to give details it’s hard, she’s thinking really hard.
I believe that she doesn’t remember her mother really only her essence in the force.
That’s why all she can remember really are emotional traits, not necessarily physical ones.
ThatScoobyDoom: That’s exactly what I mean by pushing the envelope, it leaves a thread but imagine how folks woulda jumped on George’s dick if he had beat the shit out of her.
But, on top of the youngling slaughter, it would have finally sold Vader as evil.
I don’t know about that, we’ve said many times that Sidious was clouding the Force.
It’s clear he’d shielded Vader from shit after this, if Sidious knew she was dead or not is irrelevent to the possibility that he could have put a cone of silence over her, right?
I always kinda thought of it that way, you hear folks talk about early memories all the time and they’re about as detailed as what she explained, I only brought that up because alot of people seem to be caught up on that “I remember my mother” scene.
I was always more caught up on the fact that Obi-Wan doesn’t seem to recognize R2 and 3PO at all.
@Fitzman73: That’s been brought up before too about Obi Wan seeming to not remember R2 and 3PO.
I’ve seen a couple of different reasonings, one official and the other just speculation and they kinda mesh together and make a little sense.
Not sure I’m convinced but They’re good enough that it makes me not really question it any more.
Basically it goes like this.
George is on record saying that to the audience even though they’re machines the droids are special, magical, individual beings.
But to the people in the SW universe (with a couple notable exceptions) droids are just appliances.
They all look and function basically the same, they don’t typically invest that much time or thought on them.
So to Obi Wan, 20 years after the fact, he’s seen tons of protocol droids, tons of astromechs, how is he going to recognize these 2 as anything other than a couple more toasters.
Which brings me to the second point which is really just a piece of very compelling fan speculation that I like a lot.
If you notice Obi Wan never says I don’t know these droids.
What he SAYS is “I don’t recall ever OWNING a droid”.
One way to look at that is that he’s actually kinda busting R2’s balls for saying he belongs to Ben.
Could also just be him thinking out loud while trying to figure out why this droid would make such a claim, or where he might have come in contact with them before.
In fact, I would argue even further that a case can be made that once he sees the message from Leia that he DOES remember them, it all comes back to him.
Watch Alec Guiness’s performance and you’ll see it.
Whether it was intentional or not.
And then he just doesn’t go on to explain anything.
He doesn’t even explain really who Leia is even though he knows.
He couldn’t very well be like oh yeah by the way these are actually your dad’s droids.
ThatScoobyDoom: Clone Wars kinda fucks the George version, especially in season 1.
After Anakin lost R2-D2, not to mention all the time that Obi spent around “him” with Anakin, R2 should be burnt into his mind.
3PO was mostly with Padme after episode II, so that’s understandable.
But R2 made a big splash from ep I on.
That makes more sense even though it takes a bit of retconning and digging deeper to explain.
I can get behind that.
Before we get to the end this, which we are radiply approaching, wasn’t there something about the music that you teased last time we talked movies?
@Fitzman73: Is it bad that I don’t remember?
The only bit of music I remember teasing was for the ending of Episode I.
But while we’re on the topic of endings, I’m not sure that episode 3 could’ve ended with a more perfect scene.
ThatScoobyDoom: Nah, cause clearly I don’t remember either.
Yeah, I was headed there next. The setups for the OT.
The Twin Suns was perfecto!
Do you wish George had included the Yoda on Dagobah scene?
@Fitzman73: Not really.
It was cool to see it as a deleted scene on the Blu Ray but really it wasn’t necessary.
And I’ll go even farther and say that the Organa scene wasn’t really necessary either.
It was fine, but had they chosen to cut that as well I wouldn’t miss it probably.
The money shot, the one everyone was hoping to get was Luke being delivered to the Lars homestead.
It was a beautiful way to close up the trilogy.
And Obi-Wan just quietly backing away and fading into the dunes, it was a very poignant moment for me.
ThatScoobyDoom: I can totally agree with that, though I will say that Yoda scene looks cool and it’s good for newbies even though they have no clue where he’s landing.
2nd to last question.
Do you think Anakin and Padme were doomed from the start due to their respective “jobs”/callings?
@Fitzman73: Yeah for sure.
Put all the obsession and mommy issues and all that aside, they should’ve never been together at all.
Padme says it herself, he’s a sworn Jedi with vows to adhere to and she’s a Senator of the Republic.
Their lives are already pledged to higher callings there’s really no room in their lives for each other.
And I think the seperation and isolation from each other ultimately does take its toll and contributes a lot to the warping of their relationship.
ThatScoobyDoom: Destiny is a fickle dickle.
And I was just thinking, maybe all of that sneaking around is what ultimately lead Anakin down the path to the dark side.
My last question for this behemoth of a conversation.
As a whole piece, I know you dig the PT far more than you’d ever hate it…but more importantly, was it worth the 27 years of dreaming, speculation, waiting, imagining, and hoping?
@Fitzman73: Of course it was for me at least.
And for all of its flaws or aspects that disappointed me, without the PT the Star Wars franchise would be deader than dead.
People seem to forget there was a time when Star Wars had basically faded to nothing.
Starting in 1985 There was almost a decade of NO STAR WARS.
The most we got came by way of the West End Games roleplaying game that dropped in 87.
Otherwise that was pretty much IT until the Kenner toy line fired back up in 95 and the Special Editions a couple years later.
And when I say nothing Star Wars I mean NOTHING.
By the late 80s, other than the hardest of hardcore fans, nobody gave 2 shits about Star Wars anymore.
The Special Editions reminded people how awesome those movies were and got the casual fan interested again.
That fueled the desire for more new content which led to the PT.
The PT brought Star Wars fully back into the popular consciousness of the world.
It doesn’t matter what your personal opinion of those 3 movies are, without them we’d be lucky to just get OT re-releases every 10 years.
Instead, we’ve been given countless novels, video games, 2 amazing animated shows, a new theatrical film coming this year and every year from now on at least for the forseeable future, toys, conventions, costumes, everything you can imagine.
Without the PT none of that happens.
This new generation of Star Wars doesn’t happen.
The current state of filmaking in general doesn’t happen.
The PT were a test ground for tons of stuff that are standard movie making techniques now.
Digital prints? Thank the PT.
Fully realized main characters done via CG? Thank the PT.
Digital environments that are almost indistinguishable from an actual set or location? Thank the PT.
So just by virtue of all the good that has come from the PT, I’d say yeah they were worth the wait.
I can’t thank good Sir Fitz enough for sliding into the guest seat for me and closing out this prequel talk.
Now do yourself a favor and get your ass over to Twitter and follow Fitz, his pod, and his sister Molly (who he do dat pod with, yo) all them twitters are http://twitter.com/Fitzman73, http://twitter.com/JJ2End, and http://twitter.com/Tacky1Z.
Then, get your tuchus over to http://JJ2end.com and listen to that there podcast he does with Molly (DIDDY BOW!), get it all up in yo ears, man.
Some pictures provided by @SpiderScooby!
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Finally, the world sucks enough so don’t add to it by being a fuckin’ dickface.